Bump stocks are not machine guns. Not only are they not machine guns in the legal definition, but they are significantly different from machine guns in other ways as well.
In the recent Supreme Court decision on Garland v Cargill, Justice Clarance Thomas wrote:
A semiautomatic rifle equipped with a bump stock is not a “machinegun” as defined by §5845(b) because: (1) it cannot fire more than one shot “by a single function of the trigger” and (2) even if it could, it would not do so “automatically.”
Far left VOX claimed Thomas was lying. From Vox.com:
The six Republican justices handed down a decision on Friday that effectively legalizes civilian ownership of automatic weapons. All three of the Court’s Democrats dissented.
In fairness, Ian Millhiser at Vox goes on to explain the arguments on both sides of the decision. Ian’s blind spot is in equating the rate of fire with the definition of a machine gun. This is the argument put forward by the leftist justices. Ian incorrectly states it is illegal to own machine guns.
Machine guns are not defined in the law or in a practical sense by rate of fire. Simple skill can produce rates of fire in a revolver at the levels of common machine guns.
As Justice Clarence Thomas notes on page 12 of the opinion: “A bump stock does not convert a semi-automatic rifle into a machinegun any more than a shooter with a lightning-fast trigger finger does.”
As noted in one of the lawsuits challenging the ATF administrative rule banning bump stocks, Jerry Miculek has demonstrated shooting a revolver at a faster rate than bump stocks generally do, at eight shots per second, or 480 shots per minute. As noted in the legal brief:
Thus, as individuals can achieve, with greater accuracy, faster cyclic rates than those utilizing bump-stock-devices, the underlying premise of this proceeding is completely arbitrary and capricious.
Any law banning items based on a rate of fire would ban common revolvers and all semi-automatic firearms because all can be fired at the same rate of fire without a bump stock as with a bump stock. Because bump stocks typically move the trigger finger much further than is necessary with an ordinary semi-auto, the rate of fire with a bump stock will be less than that of a person with a “lightning-fast trigger finger.”
In specific, carefully controlled situations, semi-autos equipped with bump stocks can attain the same rate of fire as machine guns. So can people who train to fire semiautomatic rifles rapidly. During oral arguments in Garland v Cargill on February 28, 2024, Justice Barrett said she watched all the videos explaining what bump stocks did and how they worked. Justice Barrett knew bump firing could be easily done without a bump stock. From the oral argument transcript, page 11:
JUSTICE BARRETT: Mr. Fletcher, so I did watch all of these videos and try to figure out exactly what this looks like. And I just want to ask you about this bump-firing thing.
Simple rate of fire does not make a machine gun effective. To be effective, a machine gun has to be controllable. Semi-autos equipped with bump fire stocks are more difficult to control than machine guns. Bump fire stocks are less reliable than machine guns. Because bump stocks require a relatively complex balancing of tensions by the operator, they are far less reliable in practice than a machine gun. If you had a choice between having an opponent armed with a machine gun or a semi-automatic equipped with a bump-fire stock, the obvious preference is for them to be equipped with a bump stock, as the chances of malfunction are much greater.
Bump stocks are not as accurate as machine guns. Because the bump stock introduces movement in the stock of the firearm and requires a balance of tensions by the shooter instead of a simple activation of the trigger, bump stocks are inherently less accurate.
Currently, the reason machine guns are not as protected by the Second Amendment as semi-automatic firearms is that semi-automatic firearms have been in common use in the United States for over a century. They are ubiquitous, as Justice Sotomayor mentioned in the dissent of Garland v Cargill (bold added):
He did so by affixing bump stocks to commonly available, semiautomatic rifles.
Semiautomatic rifles are commonly available. Machine guns are not. Guns that are commonly available (in common use for lawful purposes) are protected by the Second Amendment.
This does not mean machine guns are not protected by the Second Amendment. The argument was never presented in the Cargill case. The Cargill case was about whether the ATF had the legal authority to change the law. If, however, bump stocks are “machine guns” then machine guns are in common use; and machine guns are therefore protected by the Second Amendment.
This does not mean progressive judges will accept the Second Amendment at face value. Progressives look at outcomes they want, not at what the law says. If the country ends up with a Progressive court sometime in the future, they will ignore the Second Amendment again, or define it out of existence.
The wording of Justice Sotomayor will be used in future legal actions to show even a progressive justice, on the record, admits semiautomatic firearms are commonly available.
About Dean Weingarten:
Dean Weingarten has been a peace officer, a military officer, was on the University of Wisconsin Pistol Team for four years, and was first certified to teach firearms safety in 1973. He taught the Arizona concealed carry course for fifteen years until the goal of Constitutional Carry was attained. He has degrees in meteorology and mining engineering, and retired from the Department of Defense after a 30 year career in Army Research, Development, Testing, and Evaluation.
Imagine the daily terror liberals must experience? Living in constant fear of machinegun attack.
If it wasn’t that they’d find something else. They just weren’t wired to be happy.
Led – “living in constant fear – that pretty well sums up their daily lives. If it wasn’t ‘bump stocks’ it would be some other inanimate object. As full of fear as they are it is amazing they can be coaxed out of their basements to go out and ‘peacefully’ protest
Libturds just need Mommy Government to care for their every need, soothe every fear.
wrap them up and stuff them in a sarcophagus they can be a mummy
“The citizen has, at all times, the right to keep the arms of modern warfare, and to use them in such manner as they may be capable of being used, without annoyance and hurt to others, in order that he may be trained and efficient in their use.” Andrews v State 1871 “This [the right to arms] is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The Second Amendment declares that it shall not be infringed; but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not… Read more »
democrats wanted to keep the blacks disarmed, then they decided we were all slaves
You’re right and America is a plantation of slaves and we are it swallowing the lies our government and trained media tells us like there is a middle class. There really is none, you are rich or you are poor serving the master government in different ways and most don’t even realize it.
Movie: Jones Plantation and you will see what I am talking about.
And Israel is your master goyim.
Your village in Lower Dumbphukkistan is looking for its missing idiot, and here you are…
Thanks, I was wondering how I might respond to his comment that deserves no response but you said it all. Nuff said.
Have a great day.
Trump 2024
Demoturds moved on to embracing Government Plantations 100 yrs after Conservatives fought to free blacks from Cotton Plantations. Dems realized there is way more power/wealth/control in Government than ever in Cotton. And, they can put other colors on these plantations, tax productive Citizens to pay for the shanty shacks, sow belly’n’collard greens, and O’bummer phones, and they still get all the black vote. Proving once again, once free shit addicted, always free shit addicted, can’t cure stupid.
If I had to pick a favorite SCOTUS opinion, it would be U.S. v Cruikshank.
I contend machine guns would be even more commonly available, in common use, had not government interfered via the NFA tax and controls manipulating the free market demand for machine guns….and suppressore….and SBRs…and SBSs…..et el.
Technically, they are in common use per scotus. The number to hit is 140k I believe, from the taser case, to be considered “in common use” and there are over 170,000 registered machine guns.
One 170k if you restrict yourself to the antiques held by general public. LEO are civilians so I think you must include the half million they have.
People would definitely own more if either the Hughes amendment or the nfa werent unconstitutionally restricting them.
Right. I don’t need and don’t want one because I’m too cheap to feed them regularly. However if it cost $10-20 more for full auto in an AR15, I’d almost certainly take the upgrade. My understanding is difference is a hole on each side of the receiver, different selector switch and addition of another tiny piece. Could see “with” being cheaper than “without” due to efficiencies of mass production. Why would retailers or even distributors carry semi-auto only if all they sell are select-fire?
If any of the ATF cowards ever decided to do a “no knock” on Jerry and hear the beep of a shot timer they wouldn’t know whether to SH*T their pants or PRAY like a man headed to the gallows. These cowards are brave against an average Joe but if their bosses said we’re no knocking Jerry Michulec they would immediately call in sick or would become ill and need to go home.
#ATFCHICKENSHITS
or find out too late there are people that can hit six targets in three tenths of a second and reload for six more before the bodies hit the floor
Dean, machine guns ARE commonly available. They’re just not commonly affordable.
thanks to ronald reagan and the no new machine guns bs. that needs to be gotten rid of as unconstitutional you could make a ar 10 or 15 select fire with minimum machining and parts
I wish Reagan could have vetoed the bill and had it re-passed without the Hughes amendment. But would we have FOPA today if he tried? I don’t know. I don’t like what he did but I understand the why. A few phone calls would have answered that question but I doubt he made them. I hope that law is overturned in my lifetime. To “properly” upgrade the AR requires both drilling the “third hole” and milling out the step in the side of the lower receiver. For parts you need the full auto trigger group, bolt carrier and selector plus… Read more »
Without a government ban, cocaine would cost a few dollars per kilo even in today’s devalued dollars. Something similar apples to full auto firearms. Take a good look at the inside workings of a Sten. A full auto fire control group is an order of magnitude simpler and cheaper to make than semi-auto. The Sten was designed to be and was built by homeowners in their garages. The M3 “Grease Gun” is pretty similar in concept. The trigger, when released, locks the bolt open. When the trigger is operated, the gun fires until it jams, runs out of ammo, or… Read more »
It would be even easier to modify an AR to work like like a Sten/M3/Suomi/etc.
the steal stamping and barrel would put you at a few 100 even with parts made in china (GUNS THAT WOULD BLOW UP ) would cost more than 100 ,but like I said almost every ar could be converted at minimal cost.. fire control group in bulk is around 25$ us made can be machined with a dremel or mill (care must be taken) jig for hole no big deal. remember the mosquito aircraft could be built in parts and assembled in a yard…big balsa wood and plywood toy
Machine guns are protected under the 2nd, which chains the government, and prohibits all government entities from infringing (limiting or restricting) the right of the People to keep and bear arms. Congress has no authority to limit our choice of arms. Nfa was admittedly unconstitutional by the DA during senate debate 1934.
Even cannons and F15’s, are protected under 2A.
there have been people that could fire a single action army faster than any common machine gun
A WECo installer I sometimes worked with had been a signals guy in the USNAVY. He could type “foxes” so fast he could lock up the works inside a Model 35 teletype. He said it was one of the things they did to kill the boredom. Early in my telephone career I worked with the Model 35. They maxed out at 10 characters per second. So if he could type faster than 10 CPS, working a trigger that fast would crank out around 600 rounds per minute, That’s a bit faster than some full auto weapons. Food for thought. “foxes”… Read more »
Back in the late 60s, when the first touch tone telephones came out, at least in the Kansas City area, I had to remember to hit the buttons slowly or else the phone would lock up. Seems I hit the buttons too fast for the phone to understand (also early computors or still electrical relays).
There is a lot of discussion about the “in common use” phrase, in every place except the Constitution.
HLB
I think the high court needed a frame of reference in order to make informed decision. “in common use” is more of a historical frame for which USA has existed since 1776. It helps to thwart off the “legal for past 198 years, but now we don’t like it, so illegal today” issues that the Fed so often brings to the table.
“In common use” is a test which precludes banning. Failing does not mean that ban is acceptable, only that further analysis MAY be necessary. One of the simpler “further analysis” steps would be to determine whether something would be common if it were not banned.
Not a huge fan of “common use” argument because it will be twisted and interpreted to mean that not in common use means something can be banned and in common use means they need to come up with more arguments.
My biggest takeaway was seeing how much ‘trouble’ Jerry had in making the ‘bump stock’ work efficiently. If someone as good as he is has issues with it, imagine how ineffective most of us plain old ordinary people would be trying to achieve a sustained rate of fire, much less any degree of accuracy.
There is video out there of Jerry Miculek unloading something like 10-12 pistols achieving a rate of fire greater than an Uzi. Saw it on Gun TV several years ago. Kay fired the Uzi and Jerry followed up with the pistols. Can’t find it in a quick search. Did find where he shot 30 and 40 rounds in like 5 seconds.
Equal – one of my favorite Jerry videos is the one where he shot an AR15 (semi of course) next to a guy with an M16 variant on auto. The other guy emptied the mag in something like just under 2 seconds and Jerry emptied his in around 2.5 seconds. The auto guys rounds were all over the silhouette target while Jerry put all of his center mass. Who would you want on your side 😉
my laugh with the forced reset trigger, how fast your finger says I am taking a break
I had a bump stock on a Thureon Defense .40 caliber Carbine. It was fun to shoot but it was not accurate at all. You have to maintain forward pressure on the hand guard in order to make it sing. However with even the low recoil of the .40, keeping the forward pressure on and sighted was extremely difficult to achieve. I didn’t watch the video before posting so I need to make this edit. I noticed Jerry had 3 or 4 fail to fire rounds while playing with the bump stock. I had the same kind of problems with… Read more »
Big – sounds to me like you got the better end of that trade. Not that I am partial to Henry, I ‘may’ have a couple (or three or……….) of them 🙂
If machine guns are not in common use, it is because the government interfered in free market commerce by taxation and infringing rules since 1934. What number equates to common use??
I am still confused. Did the FBI actually find a semi-auto with a bumpstock at the Vegas shooting? If it did then why the FBI not disclose this fact to bolster their case?
Akai – as far as I know the feebs have never verified what guns were in the alleged shooters room nor whether any had ‘bump stocks’ – I suspect that there are (at best) limited ballistic matches to any of the guns name deleted supposedly used. If they had the data it has likely been stashed away in some deep dark dungeon and no access allowed for at least 50 years, if it hasn’t mysteriously disappeared.
Thank you Associate Justice Sotomayor for admitting that semi-auto firearms are “commonly available”, which will forever be the admission by the communist left that prevents the prohibition of AR-15s. I thought you were a dumba** when you were appointed by obammy, and you just cemented your place in 2 Amendment history as such. Thanks again for your admission.
So, does this mean the ATF must return any that were turned in, compensate for those that were destroyed and what about any that were forgotten or “lost”? Can they now be “found”
Check out the IV8888 video on youtube (if the video is still available) where Jerry ran an AR without a bumpstock against Eric, and Jerry was actually faster.