Opinion
USA – -(AmmoLand.com)- Dear Scott Bach,
The following is an open letter from myself, Anthony Garcia, President of Save The Second. You’ve probably heard of us, so I’ll spare the introduction. In fact, I’m sure you have, because we sent you a survey that you didn’t bother to return despite it being forwarded to you.
In reading your article posted to AmmoLand News dated 31 July 2019, I was struck that you believe what you’re saying. I think you genuinely believe that what you’re doing is the right side, and you’re doing it for the right reasons. Just as I believe my side is the right side, and I’m doing it for the right reasons. However, it’s obvious that our opinions differ greatly.
Better writers than I have opined on this topic at length, so I won’t ask the same questions here that so many others have asked. You can read plenty of those articles on our Facebook page. Instead, I’m going to ask a very simple question.
Now in asking this question let us suppose that everything you wrote in your article is accurate, and again I think that you believe it is.
If everything in the article is accurate, then why would there be such pushback against anyone asking for an independent audit?
It doesn’t make any sense. If you have a significant portion of your members concerned over things that aren’t true, then why not prove that they’re untrue? It seems that an independent and trustworthy audit could be accomplished relatively easily and swiftly, proving the entire story that this has been much ado about nothing. Furthermore, that seems to be the best option as it would surely be far cheaper than the millions and millions that have now been withheld by donors.
This question is, to me, the one that should be answered.
Like you, I want a strong NRA. I want an NRA that is able to fight back against those who would seek to strip the second amendment. I want more than anything to believe your article. But the fact of the matter is that I won’t, and neither will a significant portion of the membership that grows daily, until it’s proven to be fact. Why not simply prove it?
That is the way to get what we both want if in fact, everything in your article is accurate. Prove the allegations are false and reunite the membership. Start the flow of donations again. Revitalize the NRA and turn it back into a powerhouse. This is where it starts; where the healing starts.
I look forward to your response, publicly or privately.
Very Respectfully,
Anthony A. Garcia
President
Save The Second
About Save the Second
Save the Second, a non-profit organization, was formed in June of 2019 to represent the concerns of NRA Members, as well as former and potential NRA Members, who believe that the leadership and strategies of the NRA have failed and that the organization needs to be reformed in order to represent American Gun Owners and their concerns effectively. STS has proposed Five Points of Reform at their website savethe2a.org for consideration to improve the NRA.
For more information about Save the Second, The BoD Survey, The Five Points of Reform or other related issues, contact STS Board Member and Media Relations Representative, Rob Pincus at [email protected].
I’m also for an independent audit but practically speaking, Buster is correct that that time has passed. A full audit would have multiple phases, a complete review of the design of controls, operating effectiveness of the controls, forensic audits, etc. I’ve been through these in a large organization and they are all consuming and, let’s be honest, not even pro Wayne Directors are denying there are plenty of items to find (they just feel they already have a handle on them). With a fight on going with 3 organizations with subpoena power and multiple lawsuits, each having a discovery process,… Read more »
The NRA can either clean its own house or it will be done by others. The latter will likely involve more fines for many Board members and officers and handcuffs for a few. It’s their choice. The latter has also a higher chance of the NRA getting disbanded. Again, it’s their choice. Just don’t ask us NRA members to support the latter or support the organization while there is no house cleaning. Good luck with your endeavors. This NRA Endowment Life member thinks the NRA is done.
@StuckInNY “you made your bed now lay in it…” Yup…and perhaps that’s what Wayne has planned for himself? I envision the looming (governmental) audits to be styled after the Mueller fiasco – open ended, well funded, agenda driven, tediously long and drawn out, and deliberately made expensive for the NRA. Wayne, of course, will continue to draw his salary through it all. Whether Wayne is on the NRA payroll or not, he’s going to be required to face the auditors. Most people in his position would be thinking “I’ve likely lost my parachute, so if I have to endure these… Read more »
@Buster
Well, you certainly did your part helping him, trying to tell other members that his actions that were indefensibly corrupt were not that bad…
You’re not just predicting, you had an active role in covering for him. You cant speak from both sides on this, your actions don’t match your words.
NRA Discussed Purchasing Luxury Mansion For Wayne LaPierre
August 6, 2019
“The IRS could revoke the NRA’s tax-exempt status on the grounds of “inurement,” meaning the organization’s leadership is treating its assets as private property. The activity ‘says something about how the organization is being run and for whose benefit’. These things are fundamental to nonprofit organizations.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/documents-show-nra-discussions-to-purchase-luxury-mansion-for-use-of-its-chief-executive/2019/08/06/eb8b0490-b7ce-11e9-b3b4-2bb69e8c4e39_story.html?noredirect=on
I am shocked, just shocked to see that graft is going on here!
Reading this article turned my stomach. Folks on here have been talking about Wayne going to prison and I thought that was just talk, though he may really go to prison. You all remember Jim and Tammy Faye? Jim Bakker served 5 years for something like this. Wayne thinking he should be provided with a $6mm home, paid for by NRA members, so he can be safe, is outrageous. That’s right up there with Hillary or Bloomberg telling the rest of us that we can’t protect ourselves as they are surrounded by armed guards. No saving the NRA at this… Read more »
@JIAZ
On it’s face, it’s another screaming-point for the Wayne-haters. But we don’t know any of the details, we don’t have access to the board meeting minutes when the subject was presented. We know very little.
Discussing an idea and actually implementing the idea are two different things – and kudos to the BOD for rejecting the idea. But common sense and reason escapes the lynch mob – this is just more innuendo to support their cause.
“Evidence??? We don’t need no stinking evidence…GET THE ROPE!”
@Buster, You either haven’t read the article or are purposefully misrepresenting it. Which is it?
The Board was NOT AT ALL involved in any of this. Wayne LaPierre discussed buying a house with NRA members money with Ackerman McQueen. And, yes, discussing doing something illegal vs. doing it is different. It still stinks!
Still haven’t asked my previous question: https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/dear-nra-why-not-an-independent-audit/comment-page-1/#comment-2771356
It appears you repeatedly engage in doublespeak in discussions on AmmoLand for the purpose of protecting Wayne LaPierre.
asked => answered
@ Charlie Foxtrot I read two or three articles – I didn’t see A-M mentioned anywhere. So tell us exactly what the discussion entailed? Who was the seller? Did A-M bring the idea to Wayne? If so, what did Wayne tell them? Could it be Wayne told them it would be illegal/improper? If he did tell A-M it would be illegal, would that constitute the reported “discussion”? Here’s a thought: perhaps Wayne knew it was illegal, which is why it never got presented to the board? I didn’t see any of these questions answered in any of the articles I… Read more »
@CGGator Foxtrot I posted the following further up in this thread – perhaps you didn’t see it? But I’m curious – which part of indicates any support for Wayne? “I envision the looming (governmental) audits to be styled after the Mueller fiasco – open ended, well funded, agenda driven, tediously long and drawn out, and deliberately made expensive for the NRA. Wayne, of course, will continue to draw his salary through it all. Whether Wayne is on the NRA payroll or not, he’s going to be required to face the auditors. Most people in his position would be thinking “I’ve… Read more »
So, you did not read the Washington Post article cited above to which you replied to then? It mentions Ackerman McQueen right there! Also, this entire scandal was revealed as part of the Ackerman McQueen vs. NRA lawsuit, which is also mentioned right there. Wayne approached Ackerman McQueen, which is also mentioned right there. If Wayne didn’t know what he was asking Ackerman McQueen was highly illegal, then he is just highly incompetent. If he knew it was illegal, why did he asked Ackerman McQueen in the first place? How about you read that article and then come back with… Read more »
@ Charlie Foxtrot
No, I didn’t read the washington post – I can’t access their articles without signing up or joining or some such.
So I stand corrected – somewhat.
Screaming for hard evidence does not automatically put me in defense of Wayne or status quo – it puts me on the side of common sense and reason and skepticism. Fake news is alive and well here on ammoland.
Yes, at this point screaming for hard evidence does automatically put you in defense of Wayne and the status quo, since you are parroting their nonsensical argument about the need for NRA members to prove that they are corrupt. As I said, the NRA leadership has to prove to the NRA members that they aren’t. As for your fake news argument, the NRA has never said that the leaked documents about the NRA’s corruption are fake. In fact, The NRA said the opposite. They said that they were internal communication that were leaked to damage the NRA. I pointed you… Read more »
@Buster Too bad you already left history here that shows what you are. Let me demonstrate. Here is a quote from you. “Here’s a thought: perhaps Wayne knew it was illegal, which is why it never got presented to the board?” Boy, that’s a really good statement, gets right to the heart of the matter. It’s too bad that is exactly what Charlie and I were describing to you a few days ago, something you directly tried to distract from and deny while defending Wayne Lapierre! You should remember, it’s where you invented and tried to get off topic on… Read more »
As for the NRA being finished were a long way before the curtain falls on that act. As we all know the wheels of justice grind slowly, and with the scores of personalities the NYS & DC attorneys have subpoenaed, its going to take a whole hell of a lot of months of Sundays, for interrogatories to be completed before trials even begin. And they’re still wrangling with the boss man over records, let alone an audit. Lapierre and his criminal leadership team to all intents and purposes are more than finished, their irrelevant. For all the angst and ire… Read more »
@ahhiyawa
Indeed the war can be won, and I believe will be won. Light will be shined into all the dark corners, and things will shake out just as they are supposed to. When it does, membership will star up again and we’ll be back in the fight.
@ahhiyawa
The question that will affect whether or not the NRA lives or dies is dependent on the members and follows as such.
Will those actually interested in reform actually have the ability in the membership, or will those who are seeking to defend and maintain the Status quo keep reform from happening?
With that in mind, be careful that you are not lured in by Buster, his actions highlight which side he has been on and show his words to be hollow.
Be vigilant.
Revelator, I agree with all you said. As well, by the time Wayne is gone there will be nothing left …..kind of like a house that has so many problems that you save money be tearing it down and building from scratch.
Well this is it. Time is up. David Dell’Aquila just filed a multi-million civil class-action lawsuit against Wayne LaPierre, the NRA and the NRA Foundation: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/breaking-dellaquila-files-multi-million-class-action-lawsuit-against-wayne-lapierre-nra-and-nra-foundation/
Yup, that’s action. Don’t be surprised if we all wake up one morning and Lapierre and his criminal leadership team are all gone, and the remaining BOD officers are calling an emergency meeting.
“Lapierre and his criminal leadership team are all gone”
By that, I presume you mean: Gone… to a Country with no extradition to the US? 🙂
@wjd
LOL You should go sign it 500 times – that way it will be 500-times more effective!
Yup, there’s no question about it, Wayne Lapierre is SCREWED
Documents show NRA discussions to purchase luxury mansion for its chief executive to use: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/documents-show-nra-discussions-to-purchase-luxury-mansion-for-use-of-its-chief-executive/2019/08/06/eb8b0490-b7ce-11e9-b3b4-2bb69e8c4e39_story.html “Documents indicate that the National Rifle Association planned to purchase a luxury mansion in the Dallas area last year for the use of chief executive Wayne LaPierre, according to two people familiar with the records. The discussions about the roughly $6 million purchase, which was not completed, are now under scrutiny by New York investigators. The transaction was slated to be made through a corporate entity that received a wire of tens of thousands of dollars from the NRA in 2018, according to the people,… Read more »
Will, Agreed. I’m coming to see that the NRA can’t be saved. The comments form Will Flatt and Charlie Foxtrot above explain it nicely. Clearly, Wayne isn’t going to leave willingly. There are are structures in the bylaws to protect him. By the time he’s gone there won’t be anything to save. Over to GOA for me. We have to go through building another organization. Here are the two things that anger me the most. Wayne LaPierre is a wealthy man because of the NRA, and now that things are messed up he won’t leave. The other thing is that… Read more »
Check out this info I cut and pasted from the NY Times article referenced below.
This is what you call a self-inflicted wound.
“Letitia James, the New York attorney general, … Ms. James’s office has broad authority to investigate nonprofits, and has been scrutinizing whether the N.R.A. was using funds designated for charitable purposes appropriately, and if payments made to board members, officers and affiliated parties complied with relevant tax laws and fiduciary requirements.”
@PETE
Bye
@PETE
Uh oh… You made Buster Mad… Buster doesn’t like this game anymore, so Buster is going to take his ball and go home.. That way the meanies cant play anymore.
*Insert fake tears here
Its amazing how some people think that they can claim to be something they aren’t, show by their actions what they are, and then get mad when you call them out on their actions. Had Buster nailed from the get go, He’s an apologist through and through. lol
By the way, welcome to the GOA, glad to have you.
@TheRevelator
Don’t try to read too much into my one-word response. Pete said he was leaving and I was just being courteous by saying goodbye.
@Buster
If not for the fact that you are nowhere near as intelligent as you believe yourself to be, the trail you have left over the last week telling those who don’t fall in line with your view of the NRA needing to go away or “STFU” is enough to read you like an open book.
Your modus operandi has been double speak, sleight of tongue. while attempting to distract. I highly doubt that has changed overnight.
Will, I’m starting to think we would be better off having a different group than the NRA grow and take over the fight. When all is said and done, I don’t know that anything will be left of the NRA.
An independent audit would consume a boatload of people’s time and energy and would likely churn up a lot of things that might affect the lawsuit(s) and their outcome(s). And a lot of what gets churned up will be tiny things in terms of dollars and will have little bearing on anything other than to fuel anti-NRA rhetoric. (With an audit at this point) I see the possibility of NRA-paid independent auditors testifying against NRA over trivial things – spending thousands of dollars examining pennies. Few things would please the anti-NRA crowd more. I’m all for an audit, but this… Read more »
Buster, Your comments make no sense whatever, unless you don’t support the 2nd. Best option: remove Wayne and toadies now, which isn’t going to happen. Next best, independent audit. Independent auditors using solid methodology don’t make minor accusations. The audit records and spending compared to laws and best practices. An independent audit would discover and give new leadership a chance to correct things before the NY AG gets in there.
My opinion that an independent audit will not occur due to concern about legitimate findings.
@PETE
Hence, why he was defending Wayne and his misuse of finances…. Errrr, sorry, lets use his new terms for that… “Tiny things” and “pennies”…..
He makes a habit out of defending and deflecting, trying to legitimize the wrong that has been done under the current leadership. Each time he tries to downplay the corruption. Its not the Second Amendment that Buster is worried about. At this point he is just shilling for the NRA as a PR cover man.
Thanks Will. I’m really starting to see that.
Buster, there will be independent audits of the NRA’s finances by the NY State AG, the DC AG and the IRS anyway. NRA members have been asking for the NRA Board to preemptively have an independent audit of the NRA’s finances to prepare fall-out of the investigation and to preemptively take actions, such as firing those responsible for malfeasance, to save the organization. It appears it is too late for that now. The NY State AG had already subpoenaed the finances of the NRA and all of its organizations. Now, the NY State AG has subpoenaed the finances of 90… Read more »
@CGGator Foxtrot
You may be right. But with three audits on the agenda, I wouldn’t waste time or money with a fourth. Let Wayne oversee the audits – he’s the one who presided over any mis-deeds. I certainly wouldn’t want to be a new NRA Executive Director and have to try to explain to the government why Wayne did what he did.
I say save the money to contest any of the gov’s incorrect findings.
Buster, as usual, you simply do not want to get it as you have your own personal agenda of protecting the current NRA as it is. Read my previous comment about how blind you are and how people like you are responsible for the end of the NRA. The idea of an NRA-driven independent financial audit is to shield the NRA organization from the other audits down the road by knowing what the problem is and by taking preemptive action. The only defense here is offense!!! Have an independent financial audit and hold those responsible for malfeasance accountable to keep… Read more »
@Foxtrot “$200M missing” source please.
@Buster, $200 million have been apparently illegally transferred from the NRA Foundation to the NRA. This was originally reported in May, if I remember correctly. That’s why the DC AG started its investigation, as the NRA Foundation is chartered in DC. Here is an article from about a month ago mentioning the $200 million number: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/16/us/nra-donor-robert-petersen.html
@Buckshot, sorry, I meant to address your comment and not Buster.
@CGGator Foxtrot
“protecting the current NRA as it is”
Um…no…I stated “I’m pro-NRA, pro-2A, pro-Wayne resigning immediately, pro- new and smaller BOD, pro-audit, pro-prosecution for illegal activity.”
That’s hardly leaving NRA the way it is.
@Buster, “Let Wayne oversee the audits” isn’t “pro-Wayne resigning immediately” at all. It means that you want to keep Wayne LaPierre in office. You have contradicted yourself. So, which is it? Should Wayne LaPierre resign immediately, or should he stay in office and oversee the audits (whatever that even means, because you don’t want internal audits)?
@CGGator Foxtrot No matter how much he says it, Buster is most definitely not Pro 2A if you look at his actions. 1. Consider his defense of Lapierre over the last week, a man who has betrayed the membership of the NRA time and time again and helped implement several infringements against the Second Amendment. 2. His defense of the Board, and as he noted earlier farther down in the comments on this page, his deferral to Scott Bach in agreement with the article he wrote praising Wayne Lapierre. 3. And finally, in that same comment, the way he ended… Read more »
@PETE I’m pro-NRA, pro-2A, pro-Wayne resigning immediately, pro- new and smaller BOD, pro-audit, pro-prosecution for illegal activity.
I just don’t think an independent audit (until the lawsuits are settled) is best for the NRA.
@wjd
NRA has provided financial help for our 4-H Shooting Sports Program. We teach kids safe and responsible firearm use and handling. Why would NRA do that if they weren’t pro 2A?
@wjd
I think it was Bach who addressed a lot of that.
Stopping 2A erosion will take more than a defiant group of people like yourself standing there with your arms crossed and your bottom lips pooched out. You’ll never win every battle, as you will learn in time.
@Buster
The NRA has a history of supporting Gun control Measures. Bump Stocks and Red Flag laws are only the newest renditions. In the 90’s, with Wayne as Executive Director at the time, the NRA got behind Gun Free zones, namely schools.
Any organization that gets behind any Gun Control/infringement initiative is by definition NOT pro 2A. They may have guns as a basis of thought, or certain parts they agree with, but if they don’t support and defend the Second Amendment as written, they are not Pro 2A. Yet another pitiful attempt from the liar to defend the indefensible.
Notice everyone, Buster turns to the NRA board member Scott Bach who penned a absolutely lovey dovey “I heart Wayne!” shill piece on ammoland a few days ago. And yet buster, citing Back as someone he agrees with now, expects us to believe that he was never defending Lapierre… Right……. Still have that bridge in Brooklyn for sale if anyone wants it, I’m selling it cheap… And finally, his final sentence replying to buster. Very apologetic. “You’ll never win every battle.” Sounds an awful lot like a Humperdink Hutchison view on why us gun rubes had better learn to accept… Read more »
@wjd.
Starting to wonder if maybe Buster is Humperdink’s handle here on ammoland..
Notice, he defends Wayne, his trail of posts are one long excuse list and apology tour for the NRA, and now he is trying to tell us about “Tactics and Strategy” without using those words.
Trust me, Buster is not blind…. He is fully aware of the lies he is pushing here on ammoland. If he was blind he could be called innocent, but that is clearly not the case.
@wjd I’m not into conspiracy theories the way you and the rest of the lynch-mob is. I understand things like GAAP, the importance of professional attire, the dollar value of a minute. I understand that people can make mistakes and often do, but there’s more to this NRA problem than what any of us know. For being a complete moron, you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time refuting everything I say. You are threatened by me (and anyone else who wants to rebuild the NRA). Your only means of reaction is name calling and shouting down anyone who… Read more »
@Buster That’s ok, we aren’t into lying snobs who act as apologists for corruption and actions that infringe on the Second amendment. Third, Since you have made your most ardent effort at demonstrating that you are the consummate moron, the idea that you have the credibility or reputation to denote moron status on anybody else is laughable. You’re just upset that your lies haven’t been accepted, and more importantly that we saw through your façade. Again you continue with the lie and the distraction about “professional attire.” It was never about that, it was about Wayne embezzling member money to… Read more »
“Buster” Needs a Glass-sectomy. They put a Piece of Glass in your Stomach so you can See where your Going when you have your Head Up Your As*.
A little sunshine and fresh air in the form of an independent audit is exactly what is needed to get rid of the questions, suspicions and rumors.
I don’t belong to Save The 2nd but that has got to be the most objective, well reasoned response I’ve ever seen. Way to go, Will.
Yes, that was sarcasm..
This sounds like it has support from the New York AG’s office. When the NRA is in court with Super Mario and his friends what makes this little group think it can demand an organization, of which it does not have standing, prove its innocence? Who funds your little organization? Where do you get your money from? Who are you? What is your claim to authority in defending my rights? Is this a front for another organization?
How dare NRA members demand an independent financial audit of their organization, knowing that money was misspent and laundered by the NRA leadership.
Well, 90 current and former NRA Board members have been subpoenaed by the NYS AG. I guess that there will be an independent financial audit of the NRA after all.
@CGGator Foxtrot
Felixd has popped up on several articles over the past couple of months. He drops a comment, and when others show up posting facts that go against him he doesn’t respond.
He’s an NRA shill almost full time whenever he is here, and targets articles accordingly.
I know. He is a classic NRA shill, here and on other blogs.
Bingo my friend, bingo.
It’s here and I doubt it will be independent.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/06/us/nra-board-subpoena-letitia-james.html
Possibility of time behind bars,a nice long vacation for Wayne and his sycophants within the organization,they were warned by the members.
Cup of coffee, some Valium or maybe some sleep? Your edge running Will, you need to calm down or you’ll pop a vein or something.
Anthony Garcia, Ron Carter, Rob Pincus, Andrew Lander and Steve Hoback, keep on hammering the NRA BOD officers for an independent audit beyond their purview. One way or the other it’s going to happen, it being a far better thing for NRA member action to bring it about than wait for the State of NY or DC to do it. This NRA lifer has joined, made a recurring donation, signed the first petition and is waiting with baited breath, pen in hand to download, sign and mail the next petition. I don’t believe, I know that “Save the 2A” is… Read more »
@ahhiyawa
I truly hope this change you have made is permanent. Instead of trying to control the rights of others, you have changed to advocating reform while respecting the rights of others to make their own choices whether you agree with them or not.
This is the second time I’ve publicly commended you for this. If this is permanent, you’re a better person for it. Please take it to heart.
The NRA insiders will NEVER accept a call for an independent audit. They reject the notion for the very reasons everyone fears: there are a ton of dirty deeds done and still going on that have to be hidden at all costs, lest the empreror found to be naked.
In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the top execs at NRA decided to have an all-night document-shredding party some Saturday evening!! What they have done will get them thrown in jail and the NRA dissolved by court order.
Don’t be so sure.
Will Flats opinion makes much, much more sense to me than yours ahhiyawa.
@wjd F, and quietly moving their money to the Caymans, too!
What does the NRA have to hide? It seems we need to keep up the donations boycott until we get what we need.
Patriot Life Member #217710449
Join ‘Save the 2A.’
Absolutely Jeff. Not another penny without accountability