Albuequree, New Mexico – A man searching for a holster for his Polymer80 pistol had his firearms confiscated by a gun store in New Mexico because the gun lacked a serial number. The man is currently serving in the military and stationed in New Mexico. He went to Shooter’s Den in Albuquerque to purchase some Glock magazines and search for a holster that would fit his pistol. Although the man is under 21, he legally built the firearm himself.
Citizens under 21 are prohibited from buying a handgun from a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL), but no federal regulations prevent anyone over 18 from building and possessing a pistol. The military member was well within the law.
While at the gun store, the owner requested the man to bring his firearm so he could assist with selecting a holster. Upon noticing the absence of a serial number on the gun, the owner asked the shopper for personal identification. The customer, feeling confused, provided an ID. Due to the man’s age and the lack of a serial number on the gun, the store owner decided to confiscate the firearm.
Despite the man’s attempts to argue that he was acting within the law, the gun store remained firm in its position. The owner informed him that they would be contacting the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) about the matter. The man attempted to reason with the store owner but to no avail.
After several failed attempts, the man posted to Reddit about getting help to get his gun back. AmmoLand News also received multiple tips about the subject and contacted all involved in the dealings.
It came as a shock that the narrative was indeed factual. We attempted to contact the store for 24 hours through various social media platforms, phone calls, and emails. AmmoLand eventually received a response from the store’s now-deleted Facebook page. The store provided a statement to AmmoLand News confirming that they received approval from the ATF to return the firearm to its owner. The statement reads:
“The individual involved in the situation was under the age of 21 with an Illinois state ID in possession of a complete unserialized handgun. Concerns were raised about the situation, and the ATF was contacted immediately for further guidance on the situation. The ATF told Shooters Den LLC to hold it for the time being until advised otherwise. The ATF has cleared the situation and has allowed us to release the firearm back to the owner, and the situation has been passed on to the proper authorities. The owner has been contacted regarding the status of his p80 pistol and has yet to retrieve it.”
After we asked about their authority to seize the gun and their knowledge of state and federal laws regarding unserialized frames, they stopped replying to our messages. AmmoLand News contacted several well-known lawyers for their input on the matter, and they all concurred that it could be argued that the gun shop committed theft.
Gilbert Ambler of the Ambler Law Offices was one attorney who went on record. The firm specializes in firearms and criminal defense.
“The FFL, in this situation, took the personal property of another with the intent to deprive them of it, which fits the common law definition of theft,” Ambler said. “Even if the FFL thought (erroneously) that possession of the handgun was a crime, it would still not create justification for the seizure. Instead, the FFL appears to have engaged in bullying and theft. Having an FFL does not convey law enforcement powers. Quite the opposite, in fact. Here, not only is the FFL likely responsible for theft, but in taking the firearm, they also likely violated 18 USC 922(j), which prohibits the receipt and possession of stolen firearms.”
But wait, there is more.
When the young man attempted to retrieve his firearm from the gun shop, the FFL informed him that the firearm could not be transferred. Shooter’s Den stated the ATF had instructed the shop to serialize the firearm and add it to their FFL records. The young man would have to pass a NICS background check to retake possession from the FFL. Now, the man, who was a young military member under 21, is by law unable to pass the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) due to his age.
“Citizens under 21 are prohibited from buying a handgun from a Federal Firearms Licensee.” Source ATF [18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1)].
AmmoLand News attempted to verify the gun shop’s story with the ATF but did not receive a response confirming or denying the claims.
The gentleman has now filed a stolen property report with local police. It is reported the police retrieved the firearm from the gun store. The Albuquerque has yet to release the firearm to the young military member.
This story is a cautionary tale about knowing your local gun shop’s policies and stances on Polymer80. Not all gun stores know or care about laws dealing with unserialized frames. Most gun stores know the laws, but more than a few do not.
About John Crump
John is an NRA instructor and a constitutional activist. John has written about firearms, interviewed people from all walks of life, and on the Constitution. John lives in Northern Virginia with his wife and sons and can be followed on Twitter at @crumpyss, or at www.crumpy.com.
Gun store person should be found to have stolen a firearm and convicted of a felony.
And that’s a case where the “no tolerance” ATF should strip the license.
100%.
FATF and F that Gun store.
Now we know one gun store that no longer needs our patronage.
Hi Ope! You are right, sadly. If media wants a stooge to talk down an enhancement or restoration of gun rights (like Constitutional Carry), or talk up an infringement (like red flag laws), they never seem to have a hard time finding a gun store owner to support their agenda. I have seen it too many times over the decades and unfortunately, will probably see it some more. Thankfully, most such establishments did not age well and went away. The ones in my area, I would like to think I helped that process along by never patronizing them again once… Read more »
Exactly
So the P80 owner should have no trouble finding a lawyer and receiving compensation I hope. Even a dimwit could have researched the laws on that while the customer waited. I know FFLs are under pressure these days to do it better than right BUT, that FFL stepped on his Johnson there. I hope we get lots of follow-up on this story.
I’m not aware of any case where the FFL would be legally entitled or authorized to confiscate anything. Even if the customer had a NFA item, all the FFL can do is report it to the FBI or ATF. They cannot take (steal) a customer’s item and add it to their A/D.
“And at that moment he knew he F’d up”! He stole a gun, took the gun into his shop inventory with no way to enter it into his bound book, can’t return it without adding a serial, can’t return stolen gun legally because law doesn’t allow him to.
I would say that steak is so cooked it can’t be eaten. Tittle should be How to ruin your business in a day.
I don’t believe a NICS check would have been required. Could be wrong here, but returning a firearm to its owner, who already lawfully possessed it, doesn’t require one, and an FFL can even ship it directly to the owner.
What made the dealer think he could confiscate a gun that wasn’t in his possession in the first place is a mystery.
Like those idiotic “buyback” programs. How do you buyback something you never sold in the first place.
I think ATF told him to add a serial number and sell the stolen gun back to its original owner.
FATF
I think that because they took it into their inventory as their property they have to transfer it back to the rightful owner, which requires a NICS check.
I hope a law firm steps up and aids this soldier. A million dollars in damages against the store is too little.
This act by the gun store is clearly because they are in fear of the ATF siezing their license. I bet they thought the soldier was an ATF agent trying get the store closed down.
It matters little because the American people are morons and have allowed the communists to destroy their liberties and impose tyranny
not a million, a billion. they had no legal right to steal an individuals firearm. they are not law enforcement.
if perhaps, they called batfe while the guy was in the store maybe. but he contacted batfe afterwards, clearly theft.
and if the person in the store was armed it could be construed armed robbery.
doing this to a military member is even more egregious and this store doesn’t deserve any business from other military members.
Let’s say for example that young mans name is John Brown, the name of that gun store is now Browns Guns And Gear after the lawyers get done.
Okay, do we have a name for this sh-thole gun store? Maybe I skipped over it but skimming the article a couple of times, I could not find it. This gun store needs to be identified, boycotted, and hopefully put out of business.
Shooters Den LLC
2729 San Mateo Blvd NE
Albuquerque, NM 87110
Midtown/University
https://www.yelp.com/biz/shooters-den-albuquerque-albuquerque-2
Registered Agent with the Department of State Diana L. Lorenzo. https://portal.sos.state.nm.us/BFS/online/CorporationBusinessSearch/CorporationBusinessInformation
Thank You, The other Jim!
Was a pleasure; dirty trick and abuse of FFL License they practice at this store.
I went to the yelp site and there has been such an uptick in posts on Shooter’s Den, that more postings have been suspended unless you’re an actual customer. It appears that word is getting out. Good!
Good job everyone.
Yelp shut down the reviews.
Love it. Good job to all.
Also.
https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=564462317&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS646US649&hl=en-US&sxsrf=AB5stBjBGFUNPOGzg8Yz8cVYcq2XbTPsdA:1694463882920&q=shooters+den+albuquerque+reviews&uds=H4sIAAAAAAAA_6WSXW-aYBSAxWU1eZdmC1erFxuxydKLGfkStEmzgPJiRdCCSiFZHCBVhAGVD8X_sJte7nr_Y79k_2X9WLssWdeLXZzkJOecPOc8OeALAkroB20ZRam7TrCuG2KDQWcfkCzZxjQrxGQrdSOMD_I5pgj7gAvs7DJz19fxHlNkrMUSBF4tJ16txXWgzIVtk9KdaNFfTS5ZbbGKySIxU8brxdBnnZbRH5F9RbQH005gds77eGac4M_OS5-QK6T0FSmBDFRUN_fcTYJiyf1W8-utrN9gbH3X8d9Y5AH7vQz2RssojRL07aPY-LbhlvoN-YVtpXLo6ePp7nQq26v4zBBzRcBZ3-QHBj5X2tDlfFrsqL0hZUqStO7t2HrAdLm2m_jeTFjkxYDv5HSXzVempYU4FNkwZFU9iC5GPBU7onqZyNopf1ZQOJSEoW6JTCrNxqTjmoXj6uMxzflwnDEdAsZbmoxXTVpZGnkrX5w8mJ0BBhz4znEjiBwraETJOp6lln18dxB6APaEMPXSAn1Z3QcvGosGka6KnEg21adk1MqvkCPkxuCPMnjO2VGWom8enbFu6n_6Uwyt2BCzXV1wtXk4GBc9daGkE2q2VNUMpydM4C1WpPCZwG3azvQLQ-Uh31VIX9zFPW9p2L7oQikPGHVMzyWTnWd10-2ZfE-FXKAFkzqrn3W9re7tcrXQHbhkZE4nt6O6SgTDiTrfToXpwKWGbclrOsuYakFfs_Lc8uube3_rJx_xCvkImuD1XwzfXvwvwU_IevCLvgOVQxJSPC2glUNBgDiE1fukVjmk6CbBdo-QnzgpOLDRAwAA&si=ACFMAn9dOWFXLVp-5_qz1cA5iL8vSthzhlxpXWfPEY0sZP2iVVmd6XOp_zy_idhtqakolYBmn8gB1cRHTODU_ZBEvPoFDHCdQ0wQwpnpD5TnesgN3CeVeMnim7Ue0Hr9gFXOefFyCRY_PoJ7KTqrFDgr6J_iODiUDHYIUmpU9bi2lv9d1yqbH-w%3D&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiV0c3usaOBAxUjIkQIHVg0BYYQxKsJegQIGBAB&ictx=1&biw=428&bih=739&dpr=3#ip=1
Yes good work. Love those negative ratings they deserve, it’s getting around.
And here I was hoping it was a chain so that I could boycott them.
It was a wrong-headed act, but I guess it’s really hard to blame the store employee. With the AFT nitpicking for any excuse to rescind licensure, he probably decided that was the safest way to avoid trouble for the shop. It’s not what I would have done, and isn’t the moral or legal thinv to do, either.
If it was not the Store Manager or Owner, they were informed and backed all the decisions to go after and “get” the 20 Year Old Law Abiding Soldier. The Owner-Managers are Cowards who thought they could secretly abuse their authority with only a license of a kind. They never expected the publicity and backlash. Just because they carry a gun all day around the shop they developed swell heads with an Imaginary Peace Officer Status. Stomach Sickening that they choose to shine the boots of the ATF by deliberately sinking a Customer-Law Abiding Soldier. These are the same type… Read more »
Live and learn… I have believed that any FFL, assuming he wishes to remain in business for the long haul, among other “normal” business practices he also… Fully supports and defends Consitutuionally protected individual gun rights. Knows and understands the laws regarding his license. Conducts business within the legal limits of his license. Supports and respects U.S. Military members and Veterans. Based upon personal dealings with a few local gun stores, I would never have thought a FFL would resort to common theft or armed robbery. Sounds like a “catch 22” scenario; this young member of our Armed Forces might… Read more »
While they support the theft, I doubt they can restrain themselves from seizing another FFL. More likely they will send a heavily armed swat team to raid the owner’s home in the middle of the night – handcuff him on the porch and refuse to release him unless he signs “voluntary” relinquishment papers.
Don’t assume any rational or coherent approach from AFT on anything.
Could be the ATF’s scheme all along. Get the FFL holder convicted of theft and they can pull his license.
This gun store can now go out of business for aII I care.
So the Shooter’s Den in Albuquerque, is now an arm of the BATFE?
The owner should have his butt kicked for overstepping his authority and responsibilities!
Now a simple Federal Firearms License gives the Authority to Confiscate Private Property? Wearing that gun on his hip around the shop all day has caused his brain to swell. So the Serviceman’s gun was taken and ordered by the Criminal ATF to be etched, how much money to etch? And a NICS from some coward-bully who stole the gun. I call him a Coward-Bully because if he was not a Law Abiding Serviceman, and lets say a Thug from the Hood, or Mafia, the Coward-Bully FFL would have been calling him “Sir” and even wiped the gun down with… Read more »
I see the left saying, “another loophole” and in the next few weeks the ATF is going to have another rule.
The ATF forcing the FFL to serialize the gun is exactly what they are pushing in Oregoneistan. Does anyone remember Obummer trying to pass a law to do exactly what the ATF and the FFL did? I thought that was beat and they could not do that? Is the ATF overstepping it’s authority, AGAIN? or because they have an Obiden pass on anything they do, is it ok?
FJB
Trump/Noem 2024
No intelligent FFL owner would get involved in confiscating items from customers. That is creating a huge legal liability as well as the possible of physical violence for an illegal citizen’s arrest.
EXACTLY Ope! He was trying to get ahead of the curve there by licking the jackboots and kissing the ass of the ATF before he was told to do so! Well, it looks like it backfired on him big time!! I hope that by the end of the month, he’s putting up a “Going out of business sale!” sign. But, there may be a silver lining in this dark cloud hanging over our heads at present. Maybe, just maybe, somehow he has read my paper about the UNIVERSAL Get Out Of Jail For Free Card!, and will submit a copy… Read more »
Negotiating with or compromising with an enemy that wants 100% control is NEVER successful. When will FFLs, conservative Republicans in Congress, Constitution-supporting law enforcement understand? No “meet in the middle” will ever be enough for the gun-grabber Marxists. They want total domination and will settle for nothing less.
Well, since it already happened, I guess your comment is saying that the owner of the FFL is not intelligent. We both agree on that one.
I bet his actions bought him the FFL forever business license and the ability to sell guns for projects like fast and furious without repercussions. That’s until they are done with him, or the DOJ gets caught.
FJB
I don’t get all the downvotes on your comments, MusicMan. I do what I can to bring your numbers up but it is still not enough.
Thanks. They don’t realize it but I live in their head. They have MMDS. They live and wait for me to post something just so they can downvote me and others. I know they read what I have to say, and I have hit the soft spot that drives the leftist libtards crazy and maybe others that I am in argument with. You can never be sure when pussy’s won’t step up and say why they are downvoting. Don’t be concerned. I can get more downvotes than anyone else on this board, it will not stop me because that is… Read more »
Doubt it. The ATF will tell him that he did the “right” thing one day and raid his home and business the next under their zero tolerance policy.
I have been involved with government and they always give their buddies a break. He should have earned buddy status that will get him out of a few errors, but you are right, in the end they will take him out, but he will have a longer stretch than others until he is gone.
When are they going to arrest the owner and employees of the gun shop for theft and depriving him of is constitutional rights.
Where the Fטck is the ACLU? Those cocksuckers are worthless as well.
I hope he puts that store out of business and takes the money and opens a real gun store.
Anybody that makes such a gun should get out the Dremel tool and inscribe their own SN on it ……….2A
I suggested that if anyone is forced to do it, we share it and everyone put the same number on it. If I had to choose it would be FJB JOB1
The FFL (Shooter’s Den) played right into the hands of the ATF and demonrat governor by reacting out of fear that he might do the wrong thing or was being entrapped. I hope his customer base is wise enough to know Shooter’s Den is not on their side of “liberty” and that they need to abandon him and put him out of business. Now for some business advice to Shooter’s Den: i) quick, offer an excessive amount of money to compensate “the young man” for all his troubles; ii) agree to pay all his legal fees now and into the… Read more »
The person who confiscated the firearm is now a felon for theft of a firearm. He is not the judge and jury just a criminal now !
SHOOTERS DEN. Is the name of the store. It should have been in all caps and bold print. I can’t do bold but I can do caps. Let the boycotts begin.
John, where is this Albuequree, New Mexico of which you speak? Is it anywhere near Albuquerque?
In essence, this is just another example of ATF being an extra-legal organization that makes up and enforces its own rules. That they secured complicity from the gun store likely has a back story that may be found to include threats to put them out of business. The ATF must be stopped, but our supposed leaders don’t seem to have the heart or the will to stop this illegal activity.
Appears gun shop is the next BudLite, Dove soap contest winner.
100% theft of personal property, ATF has no grounds as well as the FFL to confiscate this firearm with or without a s/n.
If they defaced it was a serial number to log it into their book, it is another crime.
I hope the man gets a nice out of court settlement for his troubles.
Yeah, that’s theft.
They take the property without authority to do so, and then when they finally realize that they did not have that authority, they will not return the property because the process will not allow it.
Theft. Don’t do business with thieves.
Theft of a firearm is a felony.
Deprivation of rights (property) under color of law is a federal offense.
https://www.justice.gov/crt/deprivation-rights-under-color-law
That POS gun shop owner is a believer in the Chi Comm system of social credit—sell out everyone to advance yourself
And such is the precarious CYA situation FFL’s and their employees have been placed in by Politicians, the ATF, opportunistic Lawyers and a complicit anti-2A Media. Guaranteed had the 20 y/o owner of the unserial #’d 100% completed 80% kit gun left the shop w/his firearm and used it to commit a deadly crime, everyone of the highlighted aforementioned would have been going after the Dealer / employee(s) w/equal – if not more – vengeance as they would have the shooter.
Sadly true. Unless there was no record of the interaction anywhere.
If it’s not written down, it never happened. So be careful what you write down or otherwise record!
There wouldn’t be a record. He didn’t bring in the gun to be serviced. It was never transferred to the FFL for services. It was pulled out to be used to test a holster fit. At no point does the FFL have control of the firearm. Without a serial number, they can’t even transfer it to their bound book.
Mr. Crump, do you know the differences between the words gun, and firearm? You constantly adhere to the narratives of the ATF instead of the facts, and misconstrue guns as firearms. Whose side are you really on? Why don’t you dispel confusion, and not add more to it?
Do you think for some reason that it’s a bother to read my posts? If I am ever wrong in any way, please let me know so that I may stand corrected! I dislike being wrong, and love being right!
You’re wrong.
OK, PROVE it then! The burden of proof of any claim ALWAYS lays at the feet of the claimant! You are making a claim that I am wrong somewhere for some reason, let’s hear what it is! Where are your facts and logic to prove that I am wrong? I can back up EVERYTHING that I say and write with facts and logic, because I THINK first! I see 11 down votes, but not even one explanation as to why! Why is that? It’s because 11 trolls here got their panties tied into a knot over what I said, and… Read more »